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Old Oct 21, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23   #21
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Flare is spammable. Does that make it good? I've never seen it used effectively, atleast against us. If someone wants to spend their time throwing malaise onto everyone, go right ahead, that's one less person to worry about.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25   #22
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well hows this for malaise combo; mindwrack + malaise + energy surge/burn etc

the idea is you dont need any curses, or at most like 3-4 (since malaise wont last long on a decent player) and you can pump the rest into domination. then you can force them to kill themselves with mindwrack, or just kind of sit there with crappy energy.

only problems i see with this is that you are going to run into MASSIVE energy problems since malaise is *5* energy and mindwrack is 5 energy... or you wont since theyre both 5.

what i do like about it is that it does more damage than the migraine/interupt build, while not being dependant on those hexes staying ON the target...

... and its an easily spammable way of doing edenial, esurge/burn all have 20 second cooldowns while these have like 2 seconds. and theres no elite involved so you can spend that on energy management (maybe)

(reason i mention damage is because then maybe you can do a 4 mesmer/1 warrior team in tombs and actually have the matches last less than 25 minutes )

this is all gwtheory at the moment ^^

Last edited by smurfhunter; Oct 23, 2005 at 12:51 AM // 00:51..
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29   #23
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Originally Posted by smurfhunter
only problems i see with this is that you are going to run into MASSIVE energy problems since malaise is 10 energy and mindwrack is 5 energy...
Malaise is 5 energy.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51   #24
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Originally Posted by NatalieD
Malaise is 5 energy.
you sure? i thought i read it as 10... well ill take your word for it...
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfhunter
well hows this for malaise combo; mindwrack + malaise + energy surge/burn etc

the idea is you dont need any curses, or at most like 3-4 (since malaise wont last long on a decent player) and you can pump the rest into domination. then you can force them to kill themselves with mindwrack, or just kind of sit there with crappy energy.

only problems i see with this is that you are going to run into MASSIVE energy problems since malaise is *5* energy and mindwrack is 5 energy... or you wont since theyre both 5.

what i do like about it is that it does more damage than the migraine/interupt build, while not being dependant on those hexes staying ON the target...

... and its an easily spammable way of doing edenial, esurge/burn all have 20 second cooldowns while these have like 2 seconds. and theres no elite involved so you can spend that on energy management (maybe)

(reason i mention damage is because then maybe you can do a 4 mesmer/1 warrior team in tombs and actually have the matches last less than 25 minutes )

this is all gwtheory at the moment ^^
Malaise and Mind Wrack both are short recharge and neither are elite, true... but Energy Surge is an elite, and I believe you included that in the skills for the combo. I might be able to get away with low level curses if I used this combo, which would be nice. I could pump up Inspiration for better energy gain that way
I'll test it out sometime and see what happens.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51   #26
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Originally Posted by Shwitz
Malaise and Mind Wrack both are short recharge and neither are elite, true... but Energy Surge is an elite, and I believe you included that in the skills for the combo. I might be able to get away with low level curses if I used this combo, which would be nice. I could pump up Inspiration for better energy gain that way
I'll test it out sometime and see what happens.
i had an even better idea: take panic as the elite. this one doesnt get removed at 0 energy, and if you add on malaise/mindwrack/eburn/signet of weariness it might work even better
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 07:22 AM // 07:22   #27
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Panic is a cool elite, no doubt... but 25 energy is hefty, even for someone with access to Inspiration magic. If I were to use Panic, what would I do to offset the cost?

14 Domination
8 Fast Casting
11 Inspiration
9 Curses

1. Panic {E}
2. Malaise
3. Energy Burn
4. Signet of Weariness
5. Mind Wrack
6. Power Drain
7. Ether Lord
8. Res Sig

No defense, no self-heal... how do I make something like this work?
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37   #28
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ether lord is a nono unless you echo it, at least i think so... so...

in your build id swith ether lord for drain enchantment.

my biggest problem with the build so far is you cant really do anything but malaise/mindwrack while you wait for stuff to recharge. which is great and all, but you wont be "totally" shutting down a monk with this. maybe take... glyph of renewal as the elite and use two energy burns?

i think this build still needs some work.. hmm..
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21   #29
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If I were to switch to Ele 2nd for Glyph of Renewal, I'd lose Malaise... bah, is this skill just not usable? Energy degen is so hard to maintain and use...
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26   #30
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Originally Posted by Shwitz
If I were to switch to Ele 2nd for Glyph of Renewal, I'd lose Malaise... bah, is this skill just not usable? Energy degen is so hard to maintain and use...
yea im starting to think malaise just isnt worth it..

>.< hate it when im wrong lol
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32   #31
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I've been using a Malaise/Wither build combo lately and it has been working awesome. I have never run into an issue with weapon swapping. I think the 2 degen on yourself is a really great thing. It may seem funny, but having that 2 degen is such a good way to tell if malaise is still on your target. If I see that it is removed, I throw it right back on my target along with wither.

If they are smart enough to weapon swap. Immediately after their weapon swap I put it right back on them. The thing about Malaise and Wither is that they are very spammable. So even with a good weapon swapper, they WILL hit 0 energy. Once I see that Malaise and Wither are gone, I hit them with Ether Lord. This will give them 10 seconds of 3 energy degen. Then after I see that my 3 energy regen is gone, I put malaise and wither back on my target.

I think people are thinking that weapon swapping has made malaise and wither useless, which I thought at first too. But, after using these spells a lot lately in GvG, HoH, and TA, I've found that they are amazing at draining your target of energy.

You have to think of it this way too: For every second you keep malaise and wither on your target, you are draining a little more than 1 energy. So if you keep malaise and wither on your target for 30 seconds by spamming those spells, that is 40 energy you have just denied you target. Over time, these spells are great. I don't combine them with any energy draining spells. I just let them do their work on their own. That is when they really shine.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23   #32
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If I were to use Mind Wrack in the build, that would be another way to know when they hit zero, since Mind Wrack would trigger. If you don't mind me asking, clonmac, what skills and attributes are you using? I'd like to adapt something like that for a Me/N... but I'd also have to figure out a way to compensate for being such a hot target in CA and putting degen on myself.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25   #33
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Well, I'm not going to post my entire build mainly because it is the build I use for GvG and 4v4. But, as far as the energy denial side of my build goes, all I use is wither, malaise, and ether lord. I use Ether Feast to give myself some health, but also as a bit of energy drain as well. I don't want to use heavy energy drains, because like it was said above, you don't want to work against your own elite. You want it to work for you.

People a lot of times give up on Wither/Malaise after the enemy has weapon swapped out or have removed them with hex removal. But the key to it is to spam them as much as possible. Once you get the target below that 15 energy point, then weapon swapping becomes less and less useful. Once you see that they weapon swapped for the first time, throw the spells back on the target. Now they swap back and cast another spell with about 10 energy left, now they are most likely at no energy even with their weapons equipped. Once I see that Malaise is gone after the first weapon swap, I cast Ether lord on them. Now weapon swapping won't do them any good at all and they are without any energy for the next 10 seconds. Once I notice the energy regen from Ether Lord gone, I throw Wither/Malaise back on.

So unlike straight energy drain skills that can drain the enemies entire energy pool in a few seconds. These skills are much more effective at denying energy over the long haul. They are much more effective in 8 man battles that last longer. Especially with Hex removals around. Getting a Monk to spend energy on removing your hex just for you to put it back on is a great way to have the monk help you out in draining his own energy. Once you get past that first weapon swap, then weapon swapping doesn't do much good because that is when with or with out their weapon equipped, they won't be able to cast many spells. Many straight energy drains have longer recast times. And with most monks that use their own energy management skills, it is tough to keep them a energy levels low enough so that they can't cast once you've used up your energy drains. But, with Wither/Malaise, you will be an energy management nightmare for them for as long as you are alive.

Through out the time I am using Wither/Malaise, I spam Ether Feast as much as possible. Even if I don't need the health. It doesn't drain much energy, but like I said, you don't want it to. But what it can do is drop an enemies energy to 0 making Malaise come off, this let's you know that they are at 0 energy and that you can cast Ether Lord.

I have my Inspiration Magic set to 14 just so you know. This puts Ether Lord's duration to 10 seconds.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42   #34
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So you ARE running this on a Me/N! I thought you were doing this on a N/Me, judging from your avatar and listed profession. I agree, many people give up on skills very quickly, and much like all DoT spells, energy degen spells are designed for long, drawn out battles... which may be why I'm becoming frustrated with them in the short battles of the Competition Arenas. I guess I'll have to wait for my guild to start doing some GvG with regularity or use my mesmer in the ToPK to play with these skills in an appropriate setting. I wonder, though... what is the rest of your skill set... thanks for the tips clonmac, I appreciate your taking the time to enlighten me.
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59   #35
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in fact, just to argue on both sides for a second, i did see a team in tombs that had massive amounts of energy surge-ing. they brought us all really low in that initial spike (its aoe yknow) and our monks were pretty drained but they couldnt keep the energy surgeing up, and we ended up winning. so in that case a more persistant edenial like ether lord/malaise might work. maybe.
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46   #36
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Energy Surge's *damage* is AoE, but the energy draining isn't. That'd be sweet if it was.
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 12:54 AM // 00:54   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shwitz
Energy Surge's *damage* is AoE, but the energy draining isn't. That'd be sweet if it was.
it has a really nice range too.

apparently, if you take a build of 8 mesmers who all arcane echo/energy surge/energy surge their opposite number its a guaranteed victory assuming you can keep the enemy in a relative ball and you dont expect to win altars.

ooo this could be THE Build to take mending into!!

o.O i reserve the rights to use this build with mending
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06   #38
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Sounds like a flavor of the month build if you can somehow prevent all your squishy mesmers from dying. But seriously, that'd be huge amounts of energy you're spending on everyone. Arcane Echo, Energy Surge, Energy Surge, Energy Burn... sure you've burned 30 energy, and caused maximum 240 damage by yourself to one target in a relatively short amount of time... but you spent 45 energy for all those spells, and there's no guarentee that all of your spells did max damage, since you're bound to run into warriors, who don't have a lot of energy to burn, and the casters are going to cast spells so that they won't always have 30+ energy for you to blow up.

Are you proposing that Mending be run on all the mesmers? I'm not sure what you mean.

Anyway, that would be a ton of damage done to those who ball up, assuming they still have energy for you to burn. I love Energy Surge. But, we're off topic! Energy degen is the topic of discussion. Have anything more to say about Wither, Malaise, Ether Lord, and Panic? Are there any other spells I'm forgetting that cause energy degeneration on a target?
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 01:11 AM // 01:11   #39
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Originally Posted by smurfhunter
it has a really nice range too.

apparently, if you take a build of 8 mesmers who all arcane echo/energy surge/energy surge their opposite number its a guaranteed victory assuming you can keep the enemy in a relative ball and you dont expect to win altars.
I've faced a team like that. We didn't spread out enough (Energy Surge has a surprisingly large radius!), and it took them about three seconds to kill 3/4 of our team. Mopping up the rest took only a little longer. It was kind of embarassing.
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Old Oct 24, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17   #40
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Originally Posted by Shwitz
Sounds like a flavor of the month build if you can somehow prevent all your squishy mesmers from dying. But seriously, that'd be huge amounts of energy you're spending on everyone. Arcane Echo, Energy Surge, Energy Surge, Energy Burn... sure you've burned 30 energy, and caused maximum 240 damage by yourself to one target in a relatively short amount of time... but you spent 45 energy for all those spells, and there's no guarentee that all of your spells did max damage, since you're bound to run into warriors, who don't have a lot of energy to burn, and the casters are going to cast spells so that they won't always have 30+ energy for you to blow up.

Are you proposing that Mending be run on all the mesmers? I'm not sure what you mean.

Anyway, that would be a ton of damage done to those who ball up, assuming they still have energy for you to burn. I love Energy Surge. But, we're off topic! Energy degen is the topic of discussion. Have anything more to say about Wither, Malaise, Ether Lord, and Panic? Are there any other spells I'm forgetting that cause energy degeneration on a target?

see as natalie said, its a gimmick build. you unload your first shot and then close your eyes and count to 3. by that time your either dead or theyre dead.

the idea of using mending in it was to be able to win the hoh using every crappy skill there is, like rust. ive managed to win with rust and ice spear, but theres a muuuch longer list of awesome skills to win with, like mending.

aaaanyway, energy degen can come in two forms: the obvious one (like malaise or ether lord where its like duuh he has -2 enegyr regen), or theres the slightly less obvious one where you remove chunks of energy at regular intervals. both are really the same.

for example, energy surge can be cast once every 20 seconds, and removes 10 energy, so thats like 1 energy every 2 seconds which is slightly more than 1 pip. energy burn is the same, so both of those is like somewhat more than 2 pips of energy degen, and it doesnt 'stop' when the target reaches 0.

throw in signet of weariness, and you basically have 4 pips of regen under control. the rest is fluff like shame and energy regen stuff.

so.. technically, malaise does more energy degen than energy burn/surge, only it rarely ever gets to last long enough for it to do as much as energy burn.

i think its safe to say my non-standard energy denial mesmer is under construction atm >.<
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